Anand Gandhi in conversation with Kunal Shah

CRED curious: Anand Gandhi in conversation with Kunal Shah (2020)

Transcript: (needs tobe cleaned up)

my hello and a very warm welcome to everyone from cred we are very very excited to bring to you cred curious a series that aims to unlearn the thought process philosophy and ingenuity that drive some of the brightest minds joining us today are two brilliant thinkers kunal shah founder cred and anand gandhi a multi-disciplinarian thinker filmmaker and entrepreneur in this candid conversation prepare to be reveled by the unique worldviews that emerge from the convergence of both kunal and anand’s practice one of which will be the evolution of money through the lens of biology to everyone who’s joined us today from all around the world thank you and welcome to the credit curious community that rewards curiosity please maintain decorum in your interaction with everyone here on the live stream the session is being recorded and will be available right after the stream ends for more sessions and conversations like these subscribe to our channel and stay updated and now without further ado please make some cheer in the chat section and help me welcome anan gandhi and kunal shah hello hello hello hello anand uh can you hear me hey hey hey welcome to curious anand this is a project that we spoke about long ago finally has come to life uh i am excited about this i’m already excited because our five-minute conversation was already crazy before this uh so we’re gonna go a little crazy be your usual self uh and uh for a lot of people who uh are from my world who probably don’t know about your world why don’t you give us a quick intro but Anand’s Introduction i’ll i’ll make a quick uh quick thing that you probably hired from talking about but you were the guy who wrote the soap opera uh of cookie sauce you wrote all of this from the lens of biology that’s uh the most mind-blowing intro that i have kind of come up with for you but you obviously have done way more than that so why don’t you give your intro thanks and this is absolutely amazing you know the the idea that um every time every time i make a film and every time i make characters that are that are sophisticated in their in their inquiry in their and and rigorous in their inquiry a lot of audience members turn around and say hey this is this was really mind-blowing but who really talks like this and i i always in my defense i always say wait till you see my friends tonight talk and this is this is a fantastic opportunity to let let our audiences get a glimpse of how you and i incessantly uh go go on uh binging on ideas and and epiphanies and insights of that that we share with each other so um that’s really what we do my friends and i we we started a company a couple of years ago but even before that in the last 20 years what i’ve really done is looked at the greatest breakthroughs in in our uh in the human civilization greatest breakthroughs in towards questions like who am i what you know what is life all about how did i get here what do i do with it is there a meaning things like that really things that we questions we ask ourselves as children and we somehow somewhere along the lines along the uh the journey that we take in our lives we some of us forget to to to answer these questions we answer those questions for for everyone we answer them for ourselves and we find these answers and translate these answers because it a lot of these answers are not bumper stickers they take 20 30 40 years to arrive at so you translate these answers into into stories into intuitive experiences into into something that you don’t necessarily need to spend 23 years of your life of philosophical inquiry to to be able to understand or comprehend we we convert them into metaphors and allegories that are extremely biologically experiential for you so essentially we make films and games to put it very simply we make cinema shows and games uh i’ve made in the past for those of you who are tuning in who do not know my work i’ve made films like bombard ship of theseus and insignificant man i’ve produced a board game called shasan i’ve just recently produced a show that’s coming out on disney hotstar called okay computer i’ve i’ve made many many plays my plays have been very warmly welcomed and received uh for a very long time my television has my television work uh was was uh was work of my uh was work of a teenage explorer i was 19 when i was writing television i was 21 when i retired from television so um and that’s that’s that’s part of my defense and part in my context so so that’s really what we do we we take great ideas and convert them to cinematic experiences to gamified experiences so that they can they can be very very uh entertaining uh while they’re in enlightening uh ana i have to ask you this question you Anand’s journey without an education degree do not have a lot of formal degrees and i i don’t know if you even have a degree but you’re probably the most knowledgeable person on many many topics i know tell you can you tell me how did that happen how did somebody who barely got any education become the way that you’ve become right uh you know this more than anybody does uh you we’ve known each other for so many years and you know so so many conversations uh we’re going to have i’m just realizing the way you phrase this question is for your audience’s benefit because you you know the you know very well the answer to this question because that applies to you as well um and i know you well enough to know that this completely applies to you as well that we we chose we chose our journeys away from formal education uh not to run away from education but run towards education our common institutions were not uh not giving us sufficient opportunities to manifest our intellectual capacities and uh given the given the amount of given the the the vastness of the intellectual inquiry the questions that that one was bubbling with uh that i was bubbling with when i was 16 i was i was finding the the education that i was receiving very inadequate in its uh in its rigor and it’s uh in its uh in its ability to to to enlighten me in its ability to to even begin to even uh keep up with my uh with with my own rigor and my own pace and i i removed myself from from formal institutions at a very early age from the uh at the age of 17 and rigorously designed my own learning journey so i created a bespoke journey for myself that included pretty much everything and that time of course i didn’t know that i’m going to emerge as a systems thinker or a complexity thinker out of out of all of this i didn’t even know that there is such a thing as complex complexity thinking or choice architecture or or the fancy things that you and i speak about very often now uh at that time i knew intuitively that there is something um that there is there ought to be a science that connects everything and that was the intuition that i was blindly following so i knew that i have to learn magic i have to learn theater i have to learn culture i have to understand how narratives and metaphors and language have evolved i have to understand for that too and to truly understand that i have to truly understand how the brain works how cognition works how comprehension works so for that i need to understand neuroscience but neuroscience is just engineering it’s boring i mean it’s at the end of the day it’s i mean at the end it’s like something goes awesome in some part of the brain and something gets a signal but that’s that’s not sufficient to explain anything so you need to understand evolutionary biology why it occurred in the first place you have to learn that you have to understand why biology happened in the first place so you understand organic chemistry and so on and so forth so i knew that i had to learn everything and uh and thai was always short and i was running from one program to another trying to educate myself and and and somewhere along the lines i met great friends great peers great mentors uh who who kept who kept shaping my life’s journey and we we kind of informed each other’s course connections i think that’s that’s in on the same journey that you and i also met each other uh it’s super relatable uh i think the randomness to getting to the truth which is we’ll probably never get in our lifetime uh is so much fun because we keep going to these different parts which sometimes goes into physics sometimes goes into biology uh uh sometimes uh gives you a lesson from history and and sometimes uh something pops up on a tick tock video and you’re like okay now it clicks because somebody has some simplified this is a complex concept in a 10 second video right yeah but but let’s move to this topic that we decided to kind of talk about uh and we’ve almost arrived this similar episode so i’m gonna straight away go into that yeah yeah we both concluded that money is nothing but a battery Biology of Money that’s right let’s just zoom out and talk from a pure evolutionary biology perspective that how do you think humanity managed to get to money first how is it such an important part of our life why does it drive us why does it make us sad why is it so interlinked to life why is it almost life why don’t you kind of go and zoom out zoom in at will absolutely no that’s that’s such a fantastic question like i was telling you that you know i spent the last seven years of my life very rigorously answering a wide variety of questions on on on human behavior and and found some very satisfactory answers that you and i have spoken about endlessly over the last few years that we’ve known each other uh but this this is a this is a a particular beast money is is is a memetic invention like you said it’s a it’s a battery it’s an innovation it’s a human innovation it does not exist in other species uh trade exists economics exists hoarding uh extortion all kinds of other tactics of of of economies do exist in other species from fungi to bacteria to all other species but money almost doesn’t exist in any other species but in our species so what i’m going to pause can you talk a little bit about how this extortion exist in other species and and talk about any other uh we think that the human behavior still is human but is another species can you talk about that yes so um so there are there are so many of our behaviors that we we imagined were invented by by humans but if you if you start deep diving into any of these behaviors you would find that they have origins in in evolution that will be found across pretty much all the species like every species is any at any given point of time prey to something and predator to something else uh and any given species is consuming something and giving something up and in that it’s locked in this rock papers is a relationship in this tritopic interaction relationship with everything around it but uh but let’s put a pin on that because that’s of course a very big question on on how we are different from other species and how we are similar to other species but i want to start with a with a very unique example that occurred to me yesterday while i was thinking about this question of yours which is uh the biology of money itself and and we’ll come to the idea of why is why it is a metaphor and it’s not real and and why it becomes real and becomes so palpable for all of us we’ll come to that let’s put up in on that for a second pin on the question on how is it that most human behaviors are found in other species as well but let’s start with one one very complex and sophisticated piece of human activity that happens almost every day and goes unnoticed it doesn’t even make it to front page news anymore so i want to talk about conceptual art for those of our audience papers who Conceptual art and it’s meaning don’t know what conceptual art is conceptual artists art that is not necessarily designed for an aesthetic experience it’s not designed for an experience of beauty uh you don’t look at a piece of conceptual art and go like oh my god that just gave me the most beautiful experience i could have imagined or the most saddening or the most emotive experience that i could have uh imagined you look at a conceptual art and you go like okay so what is that okay so just to give you an example of a very famous priceless piece of concept conceptual art uh it’s called an oak tree by michael craig martin and the oak tree is basically just a glass of water on a shelf on a glass shelf where bike where the artist says this is the oak tree i have transmuted this glass of water into an oak green right now what you’re looking at is an oak tree it’s not a glass of water it’s an oak tree now now somewhere along the lines you have to buy into that story to buy into transportation and buy into a endless uh discourse that the artist is proposing and thereby creating this this framework in which you are negotiating um now let’s because this is a priceless piece of work so to go and find something that has a price that has a price tag so let’s talk about uh another another piece called apocalypse now now apocalypse now is a conceptual art piece of art which is basically just words written with stencil on a bunch of frames so these are just like words like psychotic and mercenary and things like that stenciled out literally black on white on a wall on a couple of frames on a wall now this piece of art was sold for 26.5 million dollars it was sold for 197 crore rupees uh indian rupees uh now this doesn’t make front page news anymore because we have kind of made peace with the idea that art isn’t you know our trade is an exorbitant world but let’s kind of recontextualize what that means it means that a piece of paper with some stenciled words on it was sold for four crore kilograms of rice or was sold for the sustenance of 150 000 farmers for an entire year now that starts making us a little uncertain if we understand what the hell is going on how did we get here how did we get to this point and that truly blows my mind it’s like nothing nothing short of mind-blowing that we have allowed this game to play itself out to this extent and we still buy into it we still buy into this this uh idea this idea that we can store like you said money’s battery that we can store we can take kinetic energy of a lifetime a farmer really labors through their life and the way to kind of ask demand that labor back in life is to store that into virtual energy of some kind otherwise it dissipates so we have allowed ourselves to to agree to that piece of metaphor we have said that okay let’s kind of create a create a symbol create a symbol of this label so that the symbol stays with us and it does not dissipate i think if this mic falls away can you guys still hear me do you think it’s still audible if this might kind of disappears i can put it i i don’t know i will find out keep going okay no as long as you can hear me then we are all good okay okay i’m just sorry about this yeah so um now it doesn’t it you know it doesn’t it doesn’t take us too long to kind of immediately look at any concept should be so far and recognize immediately it doesn’t necessarily hold an immediate acidic value to its viewer so it’s a code it’s a code of some kind it’s a it’s a metaphor of some kind and in the case of conceptual art it’s a metaphor of a metaphor of a metaphor it’s far removed so it’s it’s it’s a mix of commentary context critique reflection and the history of all the predecessor metaphors that led up to it which is exchanged for this another metaphor which is 197 crore rupees which is by itself a metaphor that is folded upon itself folded upon the context in the critique and the history of metaphors and the reflection and the simulation of these metaphors that that we have allowed to play out in this computational model that does not necessarily have preset rules the rules we have been making on the go the rules of money are rules that we’ll be making on the goal so we have said okay if money can have this quality can we put in throw in the quality of stock can we throw in the quality of bonds without really recognizing that these qualities are not isolated qualities these qualities are driven by human irrationalities human sentiments human behaviors that now have vestiges all the way to fungi now that’s where we kind of started drawing our relationship between fungi and humans that we start drawing relationships between between extortion or or trade extortion between fungi and plants and the kind of irrationalities that humans are capable of the thing about abstracting concepts like money is so hard for most people that it almost becomes hard to imagine and therefore hard to process and how to calculate but yeah let’s think about from a lens of biology uh social status exists clearly in many Social Status impact many species almost almost all species right like uh status drives uh uh mating success uh progeny so on and so forth right and and almost every species is kind of using social status as a way to kind of propagate the species and have the best ones kind of mate with the best ones but how did this intermingle with human society what is the relationship of humans status money and this interchangeability that we’ve kind of brought into that and and why do some people manage to unlock status even without money and and what is the the mix over here and why is the status unlocked to money slightly more sustainable than the status unlocked without money yeah yeah so i mean um let’s let’s kind of take one question let’s kind of isolate these questions so that we don’t conclude too many things and you’re absolutely right for you know uh for for ourselves and for audiences that are tuning in um this is by by no means a trivial question it’s not a question that has been easily answered over the last uh a few centuries and at the same time being easily answered i mean there are endless stories about uh endless parables about the sadhu laughing at the ll at the conqueror and saying that you can’t eat money at the end of the day you can’t eat gold and silver and you can’t eat this these metaphors that you’ve created and that and there are countless stories about calling money maya uh or or an illusion now the reason metaphors and complex metaphors are that cloud meta cloud-based metaphors of storage storage uh storage of like we said storage of labor storage of human labor you need to store human labor somewhere in a in an agreed piece of metaphor and agreed upon piece of cloud storage that that can be accessed and that can be that that that can be brought back by time and by resources so uh let’s let’s look at metaphor in general before we even look at money as a metaphor because money is a very very sophisticated piece of metaphor it’s it’s a computer it’s a battery it’s a it’s an extremely evolved piece of metal that we’ve invented for ourselves and that has really transformed our civilization completely and pretty much everything that has happened in human civilization in the last ten thousand of technology that we invented that we call money is is responsible for for pretty much everything from from longevity to to profound altruism to profound uh inequalities that we that we see in our in our world today while like we said like while there are there are serious uh serious trade negotiations in other species no other species has managed to uh amplify inequity within itself like human beings have been able to no other species have been able to invent poverty at the scale that we’ve been able to uh so and that we have been able to to manage and maintain through this fiction that we have agreed to uh accept as truth the reason we agree to accept anything as truth is because we we can attach things to the proximity to our sustenance and satisfaction now these are two very important uh chapters in human human existence or existence of life uh of any kind so so let’s kind of dial back a lot more because you know these are so many there are so many things to be talked about here let’s dial back to something very very simple or something very sophisticated uh in nature we see tin bergen uh you know the nobel prize winning scientist that you and i speak about very often again uh did many sophisticated experiments in understanding behavior in studying ethology and stunning uh human behavior through the lens of studying behavior in other species so we saw in his experiments he would take a herring bird for example and he would say he would see that it the herring bird is is is immediately able to recognize its eggs and hatch the eggs and take care of them now uh nobody nobody seemed to be asking a very very fundamental question that how does herring girl you know i mean of course tilting bergen these questions were in the air but these were the first rigorous set of experiments that were conducted in ethology where tin bergen said okay there seems to be some kind of a stimulus that seems to be some kind of a pattern that the herring girl has to be able to recognize to be able to tell that this is my egg so say the eggs are of a certain certain texture certain certain color they’re white they have these brown dots on them and tin burger was like what if i make artificial legs what if i’m going to just take like plaster of paris and like model some eggs and put some brown dots on them will will the you know will this bird be able to recognize that it’s not their eggs and and he was absolutely right the birds were not able to tell the the artificial legs from the real ones so tin burgund went a little a step further from from there on and said wait a minute what if i were to amplify these dots and and make the eggs bigger so you made these really huge eggs with like darker dots with bigger contrast with the base color and what happened was was was incredible from the point of view of studying human behavior transformed our understanding of human behavior pretty much permanently and behavior in general permanently as it turned out the the birds started preferring there are the artificial eggs or the real ones the supernormal stimulus of these black dots and these huge eggs created created a created a love pornography of sorts it was it was isolated and amplified when characteristics were isolated and amplified it created a feedback loop with an algorithmic system that natural selection has evolved and give given all of us and that’s the reason why we have survived in our environments in various contexts that we look at stimulus from the environment and stimulus is driven by single fingerprints because we don’t have time to process everything so no herring girl processes all the information around it all the context around it it has to process just the dots on the size of the egg and the bigger the size of the egg the healthier is going to be the the healthier the the offspring and and hence preferred by the mother so the the mother immediately starts kind of taking more and more care of these artificial eggs and completely completely losing sight of of its real legs and this is this and you know that these stories are abundant in nature we have studied in the last few decades and less and less such stories but the reason we uh and and the moment we we look at any of these stories i mean the other story that i speak about very often that you know office um is is that in in in some birds where we have seen that if you uh birds with lighter plumage uh had had lesser meeting partner success and the moment you darken the substance uh the the plumage with the lipstick or with some kind of a paint they would suddenly become you know these rockstars they would become whatever rhythmic portions in their species and they would suddenly have the most number of mating partners now the reason that would happen again is because um in that particular species the the saturation of the blemish would be immediately directly linked to the health the genetic health of the oxidation process or some of the other real physical biological process that gives the individuals their health and and that’s an easy fingerprint to recognize if this individual is healthy or not and that’s the same with human human beings if so i’m going to put two controversial questions for you over here yeah if a if i said if a couple has three kids are they likely to care for the one who is going to be more successful well in humans as it turns out the the the answer is way more complex because firstly humans have humans have multiple ways of being successful success is no longer only physical success is no longer only uh only intellectual uh it’s a it’s a wide variety of complex math that unravels i mean we are really of the generation where where uh you know the the nerds have taken over or the jocks and the jocks are you know no longer in positions of power uh which was which which isn’t the case with with uh with apes and still we respond to those stories so yes the couples will be hijacked by some behaviors there will be one kid who will be cuter than the other there’ll be one kid who would be um but of course they will balance out their expectations and manage their expectations in every way Human mating philosophies let’s talk about human mating over here why uh like uh why isn’t it just enough to have six-pack and get the meeting success why do we need to do this elaborate ritual of studying uh making money having wealth have all the signaling goods to be able to attract uh what is going on over here so likewise it’s the same with pretty much every species again like we were talking about the herring girls in this case and or the or you know wide variety of birds with damage uh it doesn’t end with plummet the the female in most cases sometimes male even would look at look at the ability to um to negotiate with the environment how good is this individual at finding the right kind of twigs and stones to build a nest what kind of nest is this individual building is it safe enough is it secure enough is it is it even beautiful enough because the ability to produce reduction it may also signal some level of intellect some some level of comprehending the environment and many people being able to manipulate it so so so so all of these signals all of these are fingerprints towards recognizing how well is this individual going to be able to and nobody’s computing this consciously so a lot of people start thinking that oh i’m trying to say that the word sitting and thinking that oh this is very nice this will this this individual will take care of my office no that’s what’s happening it’s already it’s already computed for because the individuals the birds that did not have this computing program in them died off they made the wrong choices so the the fact that this particular choice making choice architecture exists in this world is through natural selection it’s because it was passed on they they they made the choice and because of that they had more offspring and that choice architecture passed on to their offspring and lived on the choice architecture that made them choose otherwise died off because they did not have offspring and did not have meeting uh success so in this case uh like like we were talking about that we can we can look at stimulus and we can we can this we can see the response to the stimulus in all the other species but with humans what we have learned to do now imagine uh you know in case of herring guns there was a there was a really really smart uh you know kunal shah herring girl who who looked who looked at all these birds getting easily kind of you know attracted to uh to fake eggs with like you know uh and getting or or looking looking at these other birds that getting attracted to lipstick drawn uh males and males getting making success that they would not otherwise have imagined they would they were completely you know they were completely rejected by most females and suddenly they are like rock stars and kunal is looking at this and saying okay this makes perfect sense why don’t i manufacture makeup why don’t i manufacture this little one one dollar fell tip marker that that i will sell to these these males who have been rejected by by females in their environment and i you know and i’ll charge a little penny on that like so all the experimental spend ten years of my life i can see the long long arc of it i’m doing i’m you know after 10 years of this research i will come up upon this felt tip marker which i’ll sell and i’ll take a cent from everyone that’s that’s a very little amount of money that’s a very little amount of i’ll take a you know whatever whatever it is in their economy what is you know whether it’s a twig or a stone or you know or food or whatever it is in that economy and which again by the way gives us a human problem which is holding most other species cannot hold because most other species deal in in in trade in things that are perishable humans also trade in perishables but humans have created a metaphor that stays on that lives on that is imperishable and that is money so that’s the other problem with money which is body but we’ll come to that in a second and that allows us to amplify our the effects of our causes at a scale that is that is billion times more than than any animal can uh but but kudos has sunday selling this one cent fentanyl marker one dollar feltic marker to millions and millions of balding uh featherless pale feathered males who had absolutely no mating success and suddenly these are these are to become rock stars and that’s why i started to make it make up industry in a place where it didn’t exist now what would what would kunal should do what would quran shall further do would kind of ensure that they recognize what that is uh kunal shah would also ensure that they when they when they go out to take a twig the federal market is at the high level you know is place at the eye level and so on and so forth at every level uh we have recognized that as humans we have recognized that we can nudge we can we can cajole um in in in non-euphemistic terms manipulate each other’s behaviors and we can manipulate human behavior at a very very vast scale which is no different from from that of a herring girl or that of of fungi or any other any other species we can manipulate behaviors by changing the way these stimuli are presented to humans and in what in in the context in the recipe of these stimuli you can you can isolate the stimuli group them together that’s what pornography is that’s what most politics is you you can create you can you can intensify paranoia you can create the paranoia of the other you can invent the other who’s actually who doesn’t even exist but you can create through very simple differences differences of skin color or race or size or body or geography or whatever you want even a football club which is like as ridiculous as it gets the metaphor you can take something like that and you can create the other and you can make the other the villainess you can make the other the one who does not understand whose book is impure who’s whose text is impure whose life way of life is wrong and is going to come to you take away your resources and your meeting partners and you can create holy wars on be on based on these ideas and you get creative i’m gonna pause you i’m gonna pause you over here two things you talked about yeah first is how is pornography and politics Similarities between pornography and politics the same answer second is that talk a little bit about tribalism you talked about how creating others is the fastest way to create groups and how systematically humanity has been progressing as well as going back continuously because of this one phenomena so talk about both of these things okay so let me dial back a lot for that and come to the first first you know reassurance to the audience that none of none of the things that i’m saying are prescriptive i’m just treating facts so when i’m saying that there is that that there is violence or there is extortion or there is uh you know there is there are certain kinds of selfish traits in nature i’m not prescribing these traits i’m saying that they exist and humans amplify them as well so the human aspiration in fact if anything has been to transcend nature nature is replete a lot of people a lot of people talk about going back to nature i think i think we forget that going back to nature means going back to jungle raj going back to a place where that is replete with murder and violence we only see the generous and giving part of nature because we’re seeing it through our glass doors and our air-conditioned rooms but nature is not anything but just generous and and giving of course nature is generous in gaming but nature at the same time is repeat with murder and caution uh when we when we when we walk through a walk through the woods and we listen to the beautiful sound of nature what we’re essentially listening to is millions of animals thirsting for each other’s blood and and calling for for sex that’s literally what we are essentially listening for endlessly and that’s that’s really it’s it’s not it’s anything but peaceful for for the for the bird who’s being chased for the for the animal that is on the uh whose life is a constant state of threat from predator and constant threat of uh of uncertainty of its future and future of its progeny it’s anything but uh peaceful it’s it’s it’s a cons it’s a constant it’s second by second life and death so that’s that’s really what nature is now human aspiration is to transcend it human aspiration is to say okay this is where we come from let’s not let’s not stay here let’s get stuck here let’s create a civilization that is more certain that is more equitable you may have you may have not been gifted the uh the you may not have been gifted the best genes to run really fast let life not kill you let the jungle not kill you because you may just be the individual you who may invent the cure to cancer you may be stuck in a wheelchair but you may tell us the meaning of life so let’s ensure that every individual has value and has dignity so human beings over the last 15 20 000 years and especially in the last three centuries increasingly exponentially created a civilization and if you if you look at if you look at the definition of a civilization the the finest definition of a civilization for anthropologists is to look back at any civilization in tribes when you said tribes look back at any tribe or any civilization and see if the tribe has a femur bond that that is healed if any skeleton is found with a healed fever bone because if there is a healed femur bone that means that’s an advanced civilization that means that tribe had enough social circumstance had enough social security and safety that even if an individual was was probably hurt and paralyzed and injured uh they would not die off they would have enough they would have equity they would have quality they would have sufficient dignity and they would even perhaps reproduce to live to send their genes forward by the way by that by that standard uh the us is very quickly rapidly closing towards not being a very advanced civilization by not having that why is Multi ethnicity - the fastest way to create a chaotic society multi-ethnicity the fastest way to create a chaotic society not just a chaotic society a variation is really the the juice the spice of evolution uh the the idea that uh so why did nature evolve in the way it did there could have been so many strategies why we not all one organism why are there so many different organisms on this planet now that’s that’s that’s a i’m i’m probably ascribing some kind of teleology to it by saying why but it’s not a why question as much as how question but let’s let’s just let’s just answer that question nevertheless how is it that there are billions of different kinds of lives on this planet what what really went on uh over the last three billion years for that to happen so every time and so first there is death let’s kind of accept that that’s like that’s the basic of it and before we come to money which is like so far removed now now we come so far into our philosophical metaphysical abstraction there is death there is radiation there is gravity there is erosion of life life is constantly getting disintegrated on this planet right it doesn’t hold itself together and there are all kinds of reasons why life disintegrates so now in that situation life evolved or this planet may have evolved multiple strategies of this one strategy survived which is what we call natural selection which is what we call revolution of life of the many strategies that may or may not have existed this one strategy prospered the strategy of making copies before it dies every life every individual life aspires to works hard towards making a copy of its genes and the hen is an egg’s way of laying another egg you are your jeans way of making more copies of itself you are a machine that the gene makes so that it can make more copies it can you’re a replicator of your genes and that’s really how life continues on this planet by making more copies of itself through asexual reproduction or through sexual reproduction sexual reproduction is a more complex more sophisticated way of transferring genes quickly so that we can evolve you can have more data so it’s a it’s an exchange of information if anything about your environment now while it make copies while life make copy makes copies it it changes it makes a small change it makes a small error each time it makes a copy of itself because of these these errors every generation has a variation it’s a vast variation so so you have a you know you have a you have a pool of you have a school of fish one fish would be swimming really really slow and the other would be on the other end of the extreme of being faster let’s say one is like it one swims at eight meters a second the other students are like 11 meters a second and then you have the whole range of like nine and a half in between around nine and a half in between now now what would largely happen is nine and a half would survive in that in that context of the environment because the environment has shaped that speed uh but suddenly small changes in the environment will start create creating more prosperous opportunities for for the fringes so it may be so that resources start depleting in the environment and because resources are depleting the one that are used the ones that are using too much speed will start dying off before they can reproduce but the ones who are conserving energy by being very slow in that environment will start surviving and prospering and hence saving the copies and sending them forth till it gets slower and slower on the other hand a predator is introduced in this environment whose that swims at nine and a half so everything nine and a half men below will start getting eaten up generation after generation so generation after generation anything that’s above nine and a half meters per second will survive and send that algorithm forward and suddenly you’ll have a very fast fish that evolves so that’s really that’s really natural selection and what and in that a variation is really the spice of evolution variation allows us the sustainability that we need as a species that something goes wrong at one level we’ll have other software that can take care of the sustenance of the species likewise we we apply the same kind of variation in in non-biological information so with human beings now we come to the the biggest leak of human beings and that’s where we start kind of closing in towards money before your audience starts kind of tuning out that the biggest leap for human beings the biggest the biggest evolutionary relief for human beings is is metaphor the word elephant is not the elephant and that’s profound that’s pretty much almost no other species has has symbolism yep human beings have the develop the cognitive ability at some point in evolution along the lines of variation homonyms and human beings and homo sapiens eventually develop the cognitive ability of assigning of assigning extremely simple science the science can be oral can be graphic can be can be sculptural can be can be abstract can be just existing in our heads can be can be or can be verbal can be conceptual just a sign to to recognize an object to to codify an object so that information about that object can be transferred more rapidly so every time i would have to i have to invoke in you the idea of 30 elephants i don’t have to literally hold your hand and take you to the savannah and wait for 30 elephants to show up we have created signs like 13 like numbers elephant that that immediately invokes in you the idea of what an elephant is and through that we can now show each other show each other 30 elephants even without seeing one even without seeing a group of humans now that ability has has created an exponential leap in in who we are as a species and that separates us from every other species that is really similarly the the reason why human ever no other tiger like i said there is there is violence in nature but no other tiger with a wither this switch of a flip of a trigger can kill a million tigers at one go and and absolutely no other bonobo can uh can have a can can be altruistic can save the lives or can alter the lives for for good of a million born over with one good task whereas humans have that ability we have the ability to do just with one tiny little gesture alter the lives of millions or billions of humans and somehow and our entire lives go towards arriving at the place where we have that possibility where we have that that opportunity now now there is again i’m packing in a lot of lot of stuff here going back to where we were about science the idea that we can assign symbols to to objects the ability to abstract objects the ability to map territories the idea that we have these territories that are so vast you know there’s a story that i that i that i speak of very often that an emperor invited a cartographer to map their entire territory and the cartographer went ahead and mapped the territory and suddenly the trade routes changed and suddenly people became we started being able to optimize their risks and and all kinds of things changed in their lives they were able to take long short decisions instead of short-term decisions because of the the ability to be able to see their life from a bird’s-eye view but the cartographer was not was not happy with it so she kept making a map that was finer and finer and more and more intricate and closer and closer in resemblance to the original territory till it came to be that the map replaced the kingdom that the map became became so intricate and so rich that people started living in the map more than they lived in the kingdom and that’s really where we arrived now we spend more time on instagram and google and reddit and wikipedia and and all kinds of online interactions than we do in the real world we have started living in a map and money is a map of the real world um a map that that does not necessarily have a very precise legend the legend has has been uh brute force applied it’s it’s been it’s it’s constantly evolving and we’re constantly negotiating with nobody sat down at the very beginning and said this is money and this is the legend this is how it’s going to work and that’s it no further development it’s that’s not how it happened we started with a metaphor we started with a map of a territory and we started playing with the map as if it’s a territory and that that allowed us to arrive at this this madness where we now have trillions of dollars in abstraction in and it’s it’s kind of this faith system where everyone has to sign up for this faith but unlike faith there is no such thing as there’s being secure about money there is no such thing as nation state saying that okay we’ll give you the fundamental right to choose your monetary system uh you know so that’s wild but i actually have to switch to another realistic situation not a metaphor uh which is covered okay uh uh and i was earlier discussing with you that how covet is actually like poetry uh which can depending on your receptors stay with you and and once it stays with you can also transmit from you but it’s a nature’s version of doing uh some sort of a selection in some ways Human behaviour around COVID right it is gonna clean up uh the species in some ways uh can you explain the human behavior that is going on right now in the world right uh i’m i’m trying to get a lens from a like is this is this ability to imagine fear has made us worse than we were and and kind of get into different traps right now for example uh the world has become so much more efficient because of covert that you’re gonna lose so many more jobs uh because the people who have figured out how to be more efficient they don’t need as many people and let’s say when you learn to buy online you kind of take away a lot of the jobs in many many places that you have not even imagined that one behavior shift in you multiplied by billions of people kind of makes that kind of impact so i’m curious to know from you that how do you see this virus how do you see it changing the species and and why are we behaving the way we are behaving right now so here’s the thing we know this very well that this is not the first time in in the history of evolution this is happening this the kind of thing that goes on all the time this is this isn’t this is the kind of thing that happens billions and billions of times uh across the last three million years it’s it’s the kind of thing that’s going on all the time across all species where uh where uh where one species hijacks upon the resources of another species and starts kind of uh eating upon them and uh and the other species fight fights back now the the fight kind of the the war between these two species and the negotiation between these two species lasts generations till it reaches some kind of a till it reaches some kind of a of a stasis of some kind it reaches either a symbiosis it reaches a and a constant uh constant pull and push of a parasitic um or a host relationship uh or it reaches some kind of a trigrophic relationship like like in in we see that in trees that trees give out signals to the to their predators predator to call a pawn and hunt upon their predators so the trees will send out signals to to carnivores to come and hunt upon the herbivores that are that are eating them up so all kinds of tritopic interactions emerge from these kind of these kind of interactions and and humans have evolutionarily faced multiple multiple uh pathogens why do we know that because we have disgust if we that’s the historical record of the kind of pathogens we have faced in the past it’s a it’s a it’s a live history document in our in our life in our behavior that is uh that that shows us the kind of pathogens we have we have been able to we have encountered and survived in the past why does disgust tell us that look at the world look at what the behavior of disgust is look it takes something really really pungent and and and something that is that is that is decomposing and expose that expose a human being to them your immediate reaction would be to spit would be to to to put your hand over your nose making a mask basically and brace yourself or remove yourself from from that position immediately we call we have a name for this experience we have called this emotion disgust what this emotion essentially is it’s a it’s it’s really it’s really a software market in dread it’s a high priority software with a high priority response it it’s looking at potential infection in your body and it’s stopping that infection it’s stopping the influx of that infection immediately by by creating a mask by moving yourself by spitting out any kind of consumption or or engagement that may have happened and moving yourself from the source if possible now this is this is our uh this is our ppe kit that we have been evolving why do we have this pva kit why do we have this mask why do we have this behavior of creating a mask immediately because the the ones who did not got infected and died off before they could reproduce again that’s through natural selection that we have so we have in our past survived endless pathogens the ones every human being who’s alive is is a consequence of the ones who have survived endless pathogens the ones who did not survive who did not have the strategies that we that some humans had developed died off for the last century we uh we have not seen big evolutionary events in human civilization because we have we have transmuted we have transposed in a way are evolutionary needs to non-biological situations how have we done that by taking care of the needy by ensuring that more and more human beings don’t have to die from from from not having access to resources by ensuring that more and more human beings don’t have to don’t have their genes lost at the at not finding meeting partners we have created institutions we have created all kinds of uh we we’ve created all kind of energy systems where where the flow of energy is more certain than it was in in forest and southern environments thereby maintaining that more human beings will be taken care of and will will have the opportunity to reproduce and take care of their progeny and by and by doing that we have removed the the pressures of natural selection and created a certain stasis in human evolution this is a so this is not what we what we were living was an unnatural event and by the way by unnatural i mean a good thing a lot of people start thinking that if i’m saying unnatural i’m trying to prescribe them we need to go back to some i want to maintain over and over again that i i prescribe to this this human natural and not exactly unnatural but this this human interfered in nature uh with with more and more enlightenment that’s a kind of that’s what i’m if i if anything i’m prescribing to that or pure natural your pre-human natural so what i’m saying is that yes it’s a good thing that we we aspire to a state of civilization where we take care of more and more people where we create equitable resources for everyone that we where we come together and create more and more certainty for more and more kinds of life versus they’re not being certainty but this is nature nature is going to keep throwing uh throwing at us all kinds of uncertainties because that’s what nature is nature is going to have these like very beautifully eloquently said a virus is a piece of poetry it’s a piece of an algorithm and that’s that’s absolutely right what kind of viruses do we see in human behaviors you know we’ve seen all kinds of viruses in in our behaviors that have that that sustain we see people dying i mean viruses though not the only thing that kills us in fact if anything if you look around uh it’s it’s um it’s bad ideas that that humans are willing to kill each other or all the time it’s be or it’s uh it’s the it’s the attachment to an idea good bad ugly whatever it is it’s the it’s a profound attachment to the idea that this particular idea is going to give you and your progeny and your entire gene pool uh an infinite success at uh at this genetic race not in this life in an afterlife even you’ll have you know you’ll have endless opportunities to have have virgin meeting partners if anything you would you know there are all kinds of ideas that are that are that are promised as an offering to you to be willing to put your life at stake to be willing to and and we are willing to die for these ideas we are willing to be willing to die for the ideas that that give us any kind of hope that there is going to be transcendence that something about us is going to live on or something about our progeny is going to live on and these ideas don’t limit themselves to religion these ideas could be nationalism it could be patriotism it could be they could be they could manifest in many many forms and we are willing to live and die for these ideas uh so the relationship between ideas and humans is not very different from the from biological algorithms like like pathogens bacteria good bacteria gut bacteria or bad bacteria pathogen producing bacteria and and humans as well so that’s that’s really the natural that’s really how nature works it it throws pieces together and some species find a way to live together some species try to live off each other some kill off each other and and that’s really where we are at we are too large we are too vast a species too complex species and two powerful species to really be uh to really i mean to really be caged by the virus or to be brought to our knees by the virus as as we we imagined it has been uh we are we are you know like every other species we we we are lost ours we uh in fact from from from whatever little economics i know uh ganymen and uh uh economists of the last couple of decades did the math and figured out that a loss hurts 2.25 point times more than uh then then the good stuff gives you pleasure so we are here lost ours for that very reason and uh and hence we are cautious we have these smoke alarms that go off and these smoke alarms cause causes chronic pain that causes anxiety that causes depression but that’s and those are the seven times when the smoke alarms are wrong but the three times that the smoke alarms are right they save our lives so so we are hence a paranoid species we are extremely cautious we have lost ours we do not want to take too many chances we want to air towards caution and that’s the reason why we have this discourse of um of taking and we also want to take care of our of remember the first premise of civilization that we want to take care of everyone we do not want to lose too many of our numbers we do not want to lose out on our variation because it is our variation it is the vast variety of human beings that have come together and given us the solutions to to to sustain and to invent longevity today so if you if you look at the if you look at the singular signs of longevity you would see that contributions have come from you know all skin colors all regions all kinds of people all kinds of minds all kinds of genders and all kinds of human beings all kinds of physical and mental and intellectual abilities have all come together towards creating this this life of greater certainty of greater freedom of greater longevity of greater tools and that’s why we want that variation to exist it has been successful for us in the past we want this variation to not go away but also we want to create a future for our children which has more certainty we don’t know we know that genes are a lottery we know that we our own genes can can produce a progeny two or three generations later that that may that may need the system way more than we do we may be extremely well equipped to to deal with the to deal with the environment as is we may we may you know we may be gifted intellectually physically to prosper but if we do not create a system that produces prosperity for everyone uh our genetic lineage may suffer so we also want certainty for our for for virginia and for our future which is a collective which makes our aspiration collective which are makes uh which makes our selfish selfishness a collective selfishness on that note of selfishness and uh progeny what’s your view on designer babies we are going to soon Anand’s view on ‘designers babies’ have ability to edit genes through advanced technologies like crispr and maybe even more advanced technologies and very soon we’ll be able to create babies that are more good looking have better hair uh have skin that is better probably intelligence that is better i i i did my own genetic tests and one of the traits was uh about uh courage uh they had a marker for that as well which was pretty interesting and and they also had a marker for not being able to not get addicted right so i have a marker which has a thing where i’m less likely to get addicted to let’s say narcotic substances or alcohol or any of that and i was quite surprised to know about these things what’s your view when you do human will humans lack up designer babies like the bird or are we going to be consciously thinking about this and worrying about it here’s the beautiful fact about this canal we’ve always had designer babies [Laughter] of attracting meeting partners whether through whether through six packs or through six brains or six processes in your brain or whatever it is or six million dollars whatever that is or whether or through the through the ability to showcase that you have the resources to sustain and and buy more more sustaining resources whether whether through the ability to whatever that whatever it is that you you said courage you know as a marker you said again through courage through the ability to show that you have the the ability to take big risks and hence produce big gains for your progeny whatever it is that you that we have looked at each looked for in our partners that is the that has been a process of making designer babies all all attraction all love all romance has been if in anything a process of making designer babies this is the kind of child i want i want an artist’s child i want an incl i’m sepia sexual i want an intellectual’s child you know the presumption there we have that that we have of course had to rely on is the inaccuracy of what happens when when dominant and and uh dormant genes collide we still buying into some some semblance of a lottery two of the smartest people can come together and the dominant gene in the progeny may not necessarily be intellectual intellectual uh um expression or intellectual maybe you know maybe courage or maybe loyalty or maybe uh maybe all tourism or maybe empathy maybe it’s maybe something else uh you know a wide variety of uh so there is one one and and the other thing is that humans are extremely complex as as as we know that we we’re not only made of all genetic programming we are made up of a mix of genetic programming what happens in the first 24 what happens in the pregnancy state what happens in the first 24 months of our child and the physical shape of the prefrontal cortex the nutrition of the time the environment of the time the amount of violence and threat at the time all kinds of responses create create switches create triggers where where some genes are manifest or others some genes are taken up or or others and through your lifetime you you have the ability to in fact transform in that sense um epigenetically if not genetically you can transform as a person profoundly not just not just in the way you have designed your behavior through your learned experience but at a far more profound level depending on experiences that could be dramatic or it could be extremely gratifying depending on wide variety of experiences you may you may find yourself in in in a wide variety of situations where your where your profound default personality may switch because of the genes including in some cases even i cannot so uh so so the the the fact is that we have forever been designing babies we are going to do that with more precision and with amplification now the challenge with humans when we talk about all kind of human intervention the only thing that we need to be very cautious of is amplification humans have the ability to amplify anything because of this this metaphorical system this non-biological system that we we didn’t get much time to talk go into today because there’s just so much to talk about this subject i mean you’ve really taken the most sophisticated piece of an essay that can be which is uh the biology of money it’s like that that really can’t be a more more complex sophisticated piece of study of inquiry that i i’m telling you this is easily the most complex piece of inquiry that exists probably which is the biology of a mimetic system that we have agreed to live by that there is proximity to sustenance and satisfaction to such a vast degree that if you have this metaphor if you bought into this metaphor and if you have these these metaphorical uh ones and zeroes in in that abstract cloud where everyone has agreed upon putting those ones and zeros in and it’s literally happening happening at a complete abstract space you don’t even see it anymore i mean we have even moved past from cash money and plastic money we are in we’re in cryptocurrency it’s once and zeros it’s completely it’s completely metaphorized that it’s like it’s completely achieved it’s precision in metaphor and and based on that metaphor you can you can trade in futures you can you can give each other you can give each other you can give each other assurances promises you can you can simulate more and more features and and then accumulate those simulated futures you can equate the past you said it’s a battery but no it’s not only a battery it’s a it’s a simulation it’s a it’s a bloody time machine it’s it’s uh you are you’re accumulating fast as a storage and a battery system and passing it on along with your uh along with genetic lines or along with whatever lines culture lines and the same time you’re accumulating the future and putting it right there right right into this this machine that’s becoming exponential and we don’t have any rules for it anything imagine biology of credit that is each other that someday in the future we will mind the resources of a of a steady-state uh energy planet by the way this planet has the same amount of fossil it’s going to not it’s not going to change it’s going to capture the same amount of sun’s energy and we’re going to capture more and more of it as as our technologies improve we’re going to produce some some semblance of of abundance for a short phase where we’re going to capture as much of sun’s energy as we can and that’s that’s going to also reach a limit so in a steady state planet we have ascribed an infinite value uh so you know our our mutual friend sameer gave me gave me a beautiful metaphor for this he’s around take this apple you know and start slicing it how many slices can you make of an apple and i said you know uh it will stop somewhere and it’s like where where will you not be able to make any further slices of this apple uh i said you know the where the slice of the apple is the same as the edge of the knife i mean when it when it’s exactly the edge of the knife you cannot make any more slices so fantastic okay now take a virtual apple you know and take a virtual life which has been coated with one rule that it can every time it has to slice it can make us make an edge that’s thinner than the wedge of the apple now how many slices can you make you’re making infinite number of slices and that’s really what’s happened with money we’ve been making an infinite number of slices which do not correspond to the real apple out there along with that we have a lot of other problems we you know the last century of economics we imagined economies economies to be a very rational field of of inquiry you know uh we we we assume that we are not lost ours we assumed in fact in many times that we we are not even that we have self-control we don’t have self-control we have seen in so many experiments now so many subsequent experiments that we that the children will you know much rather take the marshmallow that’s available right now yeah where you are giving them the you know the promise that i’ll give you a marshmallow 20 minutes i’ll give you 20 minutes later they will just like pick up the one right now so most human beings behave in that way they do not their lost hours and they do not necessarily have self-control they do not have the ability to simulate futures and be able to predict those features for themselves um then there is hoarding that that happens in like we were saying in fungi as well fungi so fungi and plant roots have this relationship they have a very very complex trade stock market like you know um so fungi basically take resources take nutrition and supply the nutrition to plants and plant roots give give the fungi the carbon the carbon due to which is the the source we are all carbon these light forms so plant plants give fungi carbon and fungi take uh all the nutrition from from around plants and there is eve 80 of the plants on this planet like weeds and trees and shrubs and fruit and vegetables everything that you that you walk away all the plants that you see around you have this underground stock market run by a complex cloud of fungi that that manage the entire plant economy now another fungi of course like human stock market do the same thing that they have developed the same kind of strategies so they what do what do they do they plug into the plant roots and stop the plant roots from being able to find their own nutrition so they make the plants completely dependent on themselves and then they start holding this nutrition within their own clouds within their own networks and they bump up the prices through creating artificial scarcity and and hence demand more carbon from plants for nutrition that plants would have been able to buy for much lesser carbon and in that it creates creates a monetary system that is not visible but that is invisibly implicit it’s not explicit like humans but it’s implicit in that in the change of butter in the change of the rate of part the butter is not consistent in a classical butter one would you imagine that one you know one cow would be whatever 10 kgs of rice consistently across the bone like or whatever 200 kgs of rice across the board more or less with like a little bit of demand supply changing based on scarcity in the in the in the localized environment but here through hoarding it fungi learned to create artificial scarcity and so do the plants plants also do the same thing plants in fact completely paris became parasitical to do a lot of fungi like orchids for example do that with fungi so we know we know that these systems exist in every other species but humans have Money: Now a metaphor in human society! managed to by creating this metaphor of money and creating these arbitrary rules around this metaphor you know what are the rules around this metaphor really i mean i’ve spoken to economists and i’m you know you you are you you are an economist as well and so many of my friends are are great thinkers of of of finance and and have taken up this game of finance even that that you know that you uh you you very happily play and enjoy even and and you know very few will will actually i mean are common friends uh very few of our common friends will actually truly be able to give a very satisfactory answer to what these rules are here what are the true rules of this metaphor what are the true rules of this board game they’re not even consistent we keep changing them we keep ordering them and we keep realizing only retrospectively that we screwed up that we that sub that subprime could not possibly make any sense you can’t take a bubble and make another bubble bigger bubble on top of it like it just doesn’t make any sense how can this add this metaphorical value which is like you said a battery suddenly become a time machine it just keeps changing form it’s not it’s i mean in in writing in if i were to create a universe and if a writer had created a created an allegory that kept changing shapes so often i would call that call that an inconsistent universe i would say that this is not going to become harry potter you know you need to kind of remove this you need to change this that’s that’s the level of inconsistency this metaphor has shown that that we are able to pull and and most of financial institutions of the day are just designed towards finding these loopholes loopholes and the rules within this metaphor within their the metaphorical systems so that some who managed to find the loopholes within the back door within these these computing systems can suddenly exponentially change the number without anything changing i mean fluctuations in stock market companies do not make profits and losses we are not we are not actually you know what what is happening when billions of dollars are disappearing every day in stock market what is happening when when suddenly they reappear you know the the same amount of services and goods are not really appearing in in human potential so where is that money actually coming so it’s no longer battery it’s it’s it’s it’s it’s responding to it’s responding to something extremely vestigial and irrational the human sentiment there is nothing more irrational than the human sentiment and and the human sentiment is is responding constantly to these manipulations that some people hack into it done through marketing done through creating paranoia done through creating uh needs that that are not even essential needs done through creating needs of of buying uh a piece of conceptual inquiry at the price of four crore kilograms of rice um we we can we can manipulate each other endlessly towards creating these necessities towards creating these needs and that sentiment starts reflecting at a moment by moment basis on this on this really large scale metaphor that we’ve all agreed uh to to have faith in anan we can go on and on for the whole day but end this session so that we do another session very soon thank you so much for doing this every time it’s fun every time it opens up my brain to new possibilities new thinking new connections thank you so much for doing this uh over to you uh uh and thank you thank you so much hey i want to make one last point one last point yeah one last point you know i was thinking about this this morning again and something else occurred to me about about um how most money is can be made by by tapping into these irrationalities and tapping into into the uh into the human ability to respond in a vestigial manner respond in a manner that we are still stuck in positions give an example give an example yeah so i’ll give you an example the example is this that why is it that tim berners-lee the man who revolutionized life for an entire civilization history is not going to be the same ever again just because this one man invented the internet is why is it that tim berners-lee is what somewhere between 10 to 20 million dollars and the and the guy who coded the software that can that that that boys can look at girls and say if they are hot or not and is is is one of the richest people on the planet there is something about uh this this metaphorical system where where it’s not about true saving of time again that that battery example is great and that’s the most tempting one and i am personally of course very serious by the idea that that money is virtual battery where you store time saved not only from your life but from the life of every person that you have saved life off but by that logic tim berners-lee should be the most rich person on the on the planet while he’s not and i’m i’m not so sure if he cares so much but that’s not the point my point is that the most amount of money we are seeing can be made by playing into the irrationalities of people by putting objects at a certain eye level by creating hyper super normal stimulus and creating and manipulating people’s responses by creating michael bay films by creating junk food by creating mcdonald’s burgers by creating stimuli that create very strong responses in you of joy or pleasure of of anger of paranoia or fear and by creating this extremely intense manipulating this extremely intense and rather irrational senses sensitive since central mentalities you can make the you can make the most amount of money dude a lot of things to think about uh i’m going to ask you to conclude otherwise the session can go on and on uh and anand and i uh every time we’ve met each other for a one-hour meeting it’s usually been a whole day so over to you thank you so much i think none of us really wanted this conversation to end either but i do understand limitations of time um but the great thing is this conversation is going to be available for everyone to watch right after this live stream because there was just so much that was unraveled with this conversation i think we’ll be going back to it again and again to learn something new thank you anand thank you kunal for your time uh it was great having you and it was great listening to or the generous knowledge that was shared here in this conversation thank you to everyone who joined us uh from all corners of the world we will be back with more sessions like these subscribe to our youtube channel to be updated and please let us know how you like the session what were your top insights from the session we are at cred underscore club we have also uh while the session was live started a discord server because a lot of you asked for us to uh you know create the community to continue the conversation we will be putting the link in the description of the video feel free to join us there as well have a great evening and stay curious thank you so much for making me do this we have to refine this conversation i know that it was a bit all over the place okay one of these days we’ll refine it and make it smooth trust me we will you